[yannis]

Hi all, some new (for some at least) info:

- I recommend reading some articles here: https://x-engineer.org/mild-hybrid-electric-vehicle-mhev/. Pretty cool articles on our engines. I am not into car engineering at all, but some general architecture on P0 BiSG MHEV engines are good to know for all of us who had this issue. Specifically, some details on the belt tensions are crucial. For example, the site's article on MHEV types states: "... The belt durability needs to be increased to sustain higher torque and more engine off/on cycles. The variable belt tensioners have to provide: --increase tension during cranking and boost (torque from electric machine to engine) --increase tension during recuperation (torque from engine to electric machine) --reduce tension during normal driving (in order to reduce friction losses)...". It seems very complex and although I am sure they use high quality belts, things will break more often... The article carries on to say: "...significant impact on the noise, vibrations and harshness (NVH) of the engine and on the durability of the main bearing of the engine’s crankshaft...". LOL; Problems with the crankshaft is not something we need!

- I have seen this problem in other forums, such as the Jaguar models with similar engines, but you most know this anyway I assume. I did not.

- And last but not least!!: Today, my dealer told me JLR are starting a recall to pre-emptively update the software and possibly belts. He said it has taken a lot of time to calibrate and test the SW. I mentioned to him our conversations here. He was very open and transparent about it which I appreciated a lot. On the issue of fault recurrence, he said he has not seen a recurrence in the cars they have repaired there with SW update, but it could happen perhaps because when the belt shreds to pieces, some may get stuck around the mechanism and cause future problems. So, belt replacement after this happens must be done very very carefully... He said the SW should solve the issue according to JLR. I hope they are right, but time will show...

I hope the above helps...

 

[chels1985]

I posted this elsewhere a few months back and my system has since been updated again. However I would like to think that this update was in response to the belt issues that seemed to be occurring in MY21 Diesel engines - specifically the MHEV models. JLR were adamant it was software related and the release notes here seem reassuring. Here's hoping anyway!

Well it seems my previous hopes were dashed this weekend! Belt snapped on the M1 on route from London to Nottingham. D200 MHEV '21 Plate - 8500mls. Was very worrying as I was on a section with extensive roadworks upgrading to smart motorway. Therefore not only did I not have an available hard shoulder, there was no refuge area either due to the works!
"Electrical fault detected, stop when safe" was the warning. Thankfully the next services were only approx 3 miles away and I made it!
4 hours spent in the services! However LR assist guy was fantastic, and impressively carried out the belt and tensioner change onsite! He even carried out the return fuel pipe recall change as well.

I will be contacting LR customer services to log a formal complaint, can anyone advise on the best route to do this? 10 month old cars simply should not snap their belts.
I believe the hope is the software update done will prevent reoccurrence. I will request in writing their "fix" for this and details as to why it "should" work.

Apparently the replacement belt is the same part number, but the tensioner is a different part number. From looking at other forums this problem seems rife on the new D200 across Velar, Evoque,
F-Pace, XE. The LR assist arrived with 4 replacement belts which are routinely carried - clearly a daily occurrence for these guys. Why JLR have not taken a pre-emptive response to this is beyond me. I intend to purse this through whichever channels are necessary.

Thoughts and advice gratefully received

 

[shakeapaw]

Well it seems my previous hopes were dashed this weekend! Belt snapped on the M1 on route from London to Nottingham. D200 MHEV '21 Plate - 8500mls. Was very worrying as I was on a section with extensive roadworks upgrading to smart motorway. Therefore not only did I not have an available hard shoulder, there was no refuge area either due to the works!
"Electrical fault detected, stop when safe" was the warning. Thankfully the next services were only approx 3 miles away and I made it!
4 hours spent in the services! However LR assist guy was fantastic, and impressively carried out the belt and tensioner change onsite! He even carried out the return fuel pipe recall change as well.

I will be contacting LR customer services to log a formal complaint, can anyone advise on the best route to do this? 10 month old cars simply should not snap their belts.
I believe the hope is the software update done will prevent reoccurrence. I will request in writing their "fix" for this and details as to why it "should" work.

Apparently the replacement belt is the same part number, but the tensioner is a different part number. From looking at other forums this problem seems rife on the new D200 across Velar, Evoque,
F-Pace, XE. The LR assist arrived with 4 replacement belts which are routinely carried - clearly a daily occurrence for these guys. Why JLR have not taken a pre-emptive response to this is beyond me. I intend to purse this through whichever channels are necessary.

Thoughts and advice gratefully received

Makes me think should I proceed with my order for the D200mhev i placed last month for september delivery?

 

[nopixar]

Well it seems my previous hopes were dashed this weekend! Belt snapped on the M1 on route from London to Nottingham. D200 MHEV '21 Plate - 8500mls. Was very worrying as I was on a section with extensive roadworks upgrading to smart motorway. Therefore not only did I not have an available hard shoulder, there was no refuge area either due to the works!
"Electrical fault detected, stop when safe" was the warning. Thankfully the next services were only approx 3 miles away and I made it!
4 hours spent in the services! However LR assist guy was fantastic, and impressively carried out the belt and tensioner change onsite! He even carried out the return fuel pipe recall change as well.

I will be contacting LR customer services to log a formal complaint, can anyone advise on the best route to do this? 10 month old cars simply should not snap their belts.
I believe the hope is the software update done will prevent reoccurrence. I will request in writing their "fix" for this and details as to why it "should" work.

Apparently the replacement belt is the same part number, but the tensioner is a different part number. From looking at other forums this problem seems rife on the new D200 across Velar, Evoque,
F-Pace, XE. The LR assist arrived with 4 replacement belts which are routinely carried - clearly a daily occurrence for these guys. Why JLR have not taken a pre-emptive response to this is beyond me. I intend to purse this through whichever channels are necessary.

Thoughts and advice gratefully received

Can I ask, do you leave the stop start on?

 

[chels1985]

Can I ask, do you leave the stop start on?

I leave the stop / start on and allow the car to do it's own thing - as it's designed for.
Although a fair chunk of my 8500mls are motorway and dual carriageway. Therefore the system isn't active very much as the traffic is usually free flowing.

I seen the snapped belt ; other than being snapped it was heavily worn on the underside. There are thick grooves which I would assume line up to the tensioner. The fault in software and/or faulty tensioners clearly wear the belt our far quicker than it should.

JLR know about it, the issue is theirs to fix - but as yet refuse to roll out a pre-emptive fix.

 

[nopixar]

I leave the stop / start on and allow the car to do it's own thing - as it's designed for.
Although a fair chunk of my 8500mls are motorway and dual carriageway. Therefore the system isn't active very much as the traffic is usually free flowing.

I seen the snapped belt ; other than being snapped it was heavily worn on the underside. There are thick grooves which I would assume line up to the tensioner. The fault in software and/or faulty tensioners clearly wear the belt our far quicker than it should.

JLR know about it, the issue is theirs to fix - but as yet refuse to roll out a pre-emptive fix.

Im not disputing any of that I’m just asking because the majority of people who have had this happen as you say the car is left to do its own thing and stop start whenever as it should by design.

The post above explains the system really well the belt integrated starter generator. When doing a restart on a stop start the car uses the belt integrated starter generator instead of the normal starter motor. There’s a very obvious difference between when the car starts (when you get in press the button to start the car) and when it uses the BiSG in a stop start scenario as it’s really instantaneous non-crank sounding event (The few times I’ve let the car do it) From looking around on the F pace and Evoque forums this is what it is causing the premature wear…as explained the belt/tensioner have to go through these cycles and vary the tension depending on what’s occurring and it’s not doing that correctly..and/or the belt is just not designed properly to take that amount abuse. There were suggestions elsewhere that an additional software patch was added to a some cars along with replacing the tensioner and belt to make the traditional starter motor responsible for a stop start but this adds additional lag as the BiSG does it instantaneously in comparison.

I have a D200 myself on 5600miles I just want to be able to mitigate it happening until JLR sort out a proper fix. Disabling stop start seems to be a logical mitigation based on how the system works and when it gets into trouble. The belt never has to go through these high load cycles. It might be worth adopting for people in the meantime.

 

[Pier]

I understand that the problem is still not solved and that it also occurs on vehicles produced a few months ago ... is it correct?

 

[Velar44]

Oh dear reading this thread it looks like I have another freebie experience from coming JLR with use of their assistance package should this happen to me (already at 3K mileage) - something to look forward too I guess.

 

[nopixar]

I understand that the problem is still not solved and that it also occurs on vehicles produced a few months ago ... is it correct?

Oh dear reading this thread it looks like I have another freebie from coming JLR with use of their assistance package should this happen to me (already at 3K mileage) - something to look forward too I guess.

I cant see how they’d build new cars without the new software and modded tensioner. That would be scandalous. Question is who to ask..

 

[Velar44]

Well my velar is a MY21 delivered Nov 21 (build end of Oct) - so I am hoping it came with all the updates mentioned already. Most of my driving is on motorways so not used Start/ Stp that much.

To be fair I now get how to control my Start/ Stop and it only kicks in when I fully depress the brake - otherwise I can hold it on the break but not allow the SS to kick in.

Time will tell

 

[Pier]

me too! the first operation after turning on my car, I turn off the start and stop

 

[Snipperty]

me too! the first operation after turning on my car, I turn off the start and stop

Unfortunately due to the way the belt works I don’t turning off start stop won’t make any difference as the belt is in operation recharging the 48v battery during driving.
Whilst my D200 has had many faults I’ve done 10000 miles and no engine issues to date. I don’t think that forums give a true representation as to the frequency of these faults as those whose cars don’t have a problem stay quiet.

 

[Pier]

Unfortunately due to the way the belt works I don’t turning off start stop won’t make any difference as the belt is in operation recharging the 48v battery during driving.
Whilst my D200 has had many faults I’ve done 10000 miles and no engine issues to date. I don’t think that forums give a true representation as to the frequency of these faults as those whose cars don’t have a problem stay quiet.

we hope well! I'm always terrified that it will break!

 

[TimRichardson9]

My D200 MHEV has just shredded its Alternator Belt. New seven weeks ago…500 miles in the clock. Hmmm

 

[JDPRRUK]

Hope it didn’t cause any injury or damage. We’re you travelling fast?

 

[Velar44]

My D200 MHEV has just shredded its Alternator Belt. New seven weeks ago…500 miles in the clock. Hmmm

Ouch thats not good so quick and so low mileage! I would be interested to know what JLR say about this one.

 

[Pier]

belt problem on 2.0 mhev engines is now known, Velar and all JLR models with the same engine have this problem !! From 3k onwards there is a risk that it will break! some broke twice, others never! I'm just wondering if JLR has found the cause of the problem and solved it, at the moment there is no recall and I'm not sure if the software update alone solves the problem .. There are those who have disconnected the electric motor and the belt it broke down ... I'm worried and I don't feel safe, now that my car has traveled 2.6k! do you have any information on solving the problem? JLR's silence on this issue, I don't like it

 

[nopixar]

So can give a bit more light on this. Had LR assist out today for an unrelated issue to do with the car not recognising my key fobs (that has now randomly started working again ) so I took the opportunity to ask about the BiSG issues. He smiled and said "you're getting close" As mentioned earlier in this thread they carry 4 full kits on the vans (which includes replacing the water pump belt too) and he'd done 2 replacements prior to me 1 Evoque and 1 F-pace D200 MHEV. The issue lies solely in a Auto stop/start restart whilst driving. Belt cranks the engine, belt doesn't like the load and pops. He explained there is no real pattern to the ones he's done, some pop after 500 miles some after 10,000 some don't at all. JLR still arent 100% on why its happening but the new parts all have different part numbers (the belt and new tensioner) They also carry out a PCM update that takes the restarts off the BiSG and back to the starter and changes the idle tick over slightly. But its a rough and ready solution and not a real fix as such.

Unfortunately due to the way the belt works I don’t turning off start stop won’t make any difference as the belt is in operation recharging the 48v battery during driving.
Whilst my D200 has had many faults I’ve done 10000 miles and no engine issues to date. I don’t think that forums give a true representation as to the frequency of these faults as those whose cars don’t have a problem stay quiet.

I asked about turning off the stop start (as I mentioned before) and he said is a good idea. Although the belt has to recoup energy to charge and also apply torque to crankshaft whilst driving (the tensioner will vary depending on what's required), these loads are fine for the belt to deal with on a moving crankshaft. But the belt cranking an engine from standstill is a massive ask of it (at least the ones that JLR decided to use anyway) along with the way the tensioner works and that's when they snap. By turning off stop/start the engine will never use the belt to restart so in theory will never get into that "high belt load" situation. He also reiterated if you see "Stop safely, electrical fault detected " in red on the dash pull over immediately. Do not try to continue to drive as the car will die wherever you are within 5-10 minutues, be it side road, driveway or at 70mph on the outside lane of the motorway.

I asked if a recall was imminent and he said for a recall they need a definitive fix and these mods are more preventative measures for now. So for now turning off stop start is the way to go until they figure out how to fix. I asked if newer vehicles have the new parts fitted and he said he doesn't think so. Its really annoying because MHEV is now in pretty much every car manufacturers lineup, Audi, BMW, Toyota, VW etc and they have no such problems.

 

[Pier]

So can give a bit more light on this. Had LR assist out today for an unrelated issue to do with the car not recognising my key fobs (that has now randomly started working again ) so I took the opportunity to ask about the BiSG issues. He smiled and said "you're getting close" As mentioned earlier in this thread they carry 4 full kits on the vans (which includes replacing the water pump belt too) and he'd done 2 replacements prior to me 1 Evoque and 1 F-pace D200 MHEV. The issue lies solely in a Auto stop/start restart whilst driving. Belt cranks the engine, belt doesn't like the load and pops. He explained there is no real pattern to the ones he's done, some pop after 500 miles some after 10,000 some don't at all. JLR still arent 100% on why its happening but the new parts all have different part numbers (the belt and new tensioner) They also carry out a PCM update that takes the restarts off the BiSG and back to the starter and changes the idle tick over slightly. But its a rough and ready solution and not a real fix as such.



I asked about turning off the stop start (as I mentioned before) and he said is a good idea. Although the belt has to recoup energy to charge and also apply torque to crankshaft whilst driving (the tensioner will vary depending on what's required), these loads are fine for the belt to deal with on a moving crankshaft. But the belt cranking an engine from standstill is a massive ask of it (at least the ones that JLR decided to use anyway) along with the way the tensioner works and that's when they snap. By turning off stop/start the engine will never use the belt to restart so in theory will never get into that "high belt load" situation. He also reiterated if you see "Stop safely, electrical fault detected " in red on the dash pull over immediately. Do not try to continue to drive as the car will die wherever you are within 5-10 minutues, be it side road, driveway or at 70mph on the outside lane of the motorway.

I asked if a recall was imminent and he said for a recall they need a definitive fix and these mods are more preventative measures for now. So for now turning off stop start is the way to go until they figure out how to fix. I asked if newer vehicles have the new parts fitted and he said he doesn't think so. Its really annoying because MHEV is now in pretty much every car manufacturers lineup, Audi, BMW, Toyota, VW etc and they have no such problems.

Exact! However all this is frustrating! I hope Land Rover will solve it soon , but above all that it can be resolved!!

 

[Fenton]

Nopixar, that's useful information - thanks. And it adds on to the post by Yannis earlier.
It begs the question; if it is a partial workaround then why don't JLR contact all their MHEV customers with this advice?
It may be an admission of fault but it could save a lot of hassle, reduce risk and , as usual, money.

Is it just the D200 MHEV or I6 diesel and petrol as well?
Its put me off ordering and I'd be permanently worried about this every time I drove the thing.